15/10/03 19:14:02.08 Rvbe1WlX.net
>>48
lines 13-14
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
[Modern English translation by Everyman's Library]
And palmers to visit foreign shores.
To distant shrines, well known in different lands.
line 14 --- ★kowthe★
This word "kowthe" should mean "well known." This is interesting.
Here's what I've just found out in the OED:
★couth (adjective)
Pronunciation: /kʊːθ/
Forms:
Old English: cuth
Middle English 14th century: couthe, kouth
Middle English 15th century: kowth, ●kowthe●
★couth
†1. pa. pple. passing into adj. ●Known●.
Obs. (See also namecouth adj.)
†2. adj. As a quality of things: ●Known; well-known, familiar●.
Obs. Cf. the negative ●uncouth● adj.
(Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition)
51:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/03 19:32:25.78 NHIp38+D.net
あああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
おおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお 👀
Rock54: Caution(BBR-MD5:558464d2692f088d1d43d68e7664e878)
52:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/03 19:39:02.34 Rvbe1WlX.net
>>48
These 22 lines from The Prologue of "The Canterbury Tales" is
read aloud in its original pronunciation on YouTube:
(1) How to Pronounce the General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales
in Middle English Slow to Fast! (about 7 minutes)
--- This video demonstrates very slowly how to pronounce each word
in its original pronunciation. Very helpful to those who
want to actually practice the pronunciation.
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.youtube.com)
(2) Chaucer, The General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales,
read aloud in Middle English. (about 1 minute)
-- This is a very beautiful recitation.
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.youtube.com)
53:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/03 20:50:46.63 Rvbe1WlX.net
>>48
line 5
Whan Zephirus ●eek● with his sweete breeth
eek = also
★Eek, conj. also,
C2, C3; æc, S; ec, S; ek, S, S2, P; eik,
S3; eke, S, S2, S3, P; eeke, G.—AS. éac: ●Goth. auk●.
(Middle English Dictionary)
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.gutenberg.org)
The above dictionary entry says that this word "eek" means "also."
It also indicates that the word resembles the Gothic word "●auk."
It is also quite similar to the Modern German word "auch" (also).
This is very interesting.
54:Dreas
15/10/04 00:10:14.85 SSToHFMI!.net
>>26
That, is an idiom. Idioms are phrases or
Sentences that crop up in a culture. This
Means that how the phrase is said will
Differ from place to place and there is
No real way of saying what's grammatically
Correct, of at least in this example.
This means we can only answer what is
Correct in street or vernacular English,
And in this example, both are.
So, you could use either one!
55:Dreas
15/10/04 00:12:36.13 SSToHFMI!.net
Oh bollocks, >>54 was supposed to respond to >>28
56:Dreas
15/10/04 00:20:03.63 SSToHFMI!.net
>>38
Fuck, thus is getting into strange
territory. By all logic it should be fine,
But the world is not a logical place.you
Could skirt around the issue by saying
Something like "people from other
Countries". Adapting that to whatever role
You feel is right.
Shoot me some examples, I'll tell you
What to do.
57:777
15/10/04 00:52:18.97 MEBP1Tr/.net
>>47
Anthology of Tales from the Past
URLﾘﾝｸ(en.wikipedia.org)
This was probably written in the 12th century, i.e. about 200 years older
than the Canterbury Tales.
The following text is a part of a story in the anthology.
I'm not well versed in classical Japanese literature,
but I understand most of it without annotation.
I think most educated Japanese people understand it as well.
今昔物語集
URLﾘﾝｸ(yatanavi.org)
今昔、京より東の方に下る者有けり。
何れの国郡とは知らで、一の郷を通ける程に、俄に婬欲盛に発て、女の事の物に狂(くるふ)が如に
思ければ、心を静め難くて、思ひ繚(わずらひ)ける程に、大路の辺に有ける垣の内に、
青菜と云ふ物、糸高く盛に生滋(おひしげり)たり。十月許の事なれば、蕪の根大きにして有けり。
此の男、忽に馬より下て、其の垣の内に入て、蕪の根の大なるを一つ引て取て、
其れを彫(ほり)て、其の穴を娶(とつぎ)て婬を成してけり。然て垣の内に投入て過にけり。
其の後、其の畠の主、青菜を引取らむが為に、下女共数(あまた)具し、亦幼き女子共など具して、
其の畠に行て青菜を引取る程に、年十四五許なる女子の、未だ男には触れざりける有て、
其の青菜を引取る程に、垣の廻を行(あるき)て遊けるに、彼の男の投入たる蕪を見付て、
「此に穴を彫たる蕪の有ぞ。此れは何ぞ」など云て、暫く翫ける程に、皺干(しわび)たりけるを
掻削(かいさい)て食てけり。然て、皆従者共具して家に返りぬ。
58:777
15/10/04 00:58:19.24 MEBP1Tr/.net
>>54
Thank you, again.
59:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 01:50:16.05 V+Zn64nj!.net
>>57
You are remarkably well read. Are you the guy I called highbrow-kun
Before?
60:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 03:45:00.63 V+Zn64nj!.net
>>30
I study language, text, history and physics.
In my spare time I play games and do aircrew stuff.
What do you do?
61:臭い米国人
15/10/04 05:22:34.26 iNNt8R45!.net
>>39
We have a saying in English:
"You can please some of the people some of the time;
but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
The only one I find a bit odd is (4), I'd honestly just say tourist.
If my previous post didn't make sense, calling somebody a foreigner in English is pretty much okay.
But if you say ガイジン、 then it feels a bit wrong.
It's the pronunciation, not the meaning.
>>42
I usually only read the threads in the mornings here, which is around 10-11 pm there.
As >>59 commented, you're quite well read.
I studied Middle-English for a bit for fun, the only thing I read was The Greene Knight though.
For the Canterbury Tales, I found an interactive annotated version online if you'd like to take a look:
URLﾘﾝｸ(genius.com)
>>56
Was this meant for >>39, because as my name says I'm American, bro :)
62:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 06:59:29.72 n9TKM6ft.net
>>61
>>The only one I find a bit odd is (4), I'd honestly just say tourist.
Thank you for your input. The reason I wrote
"tourists from abroad (OR from outside Japan)"
as an option is that there are Japanese people living
in Japan who are on a trip inside Japan.
If you call anybody a "tourist," doesn't that
concept include "a Japanese on a trip inside Japan"?
That's the problem. Of course, when you're just
having a casual conversation, you don't have to
worry about that kind of thing. The problem arises
when you have to translate official and business
documents, where they often mention 外国人 as
a group of non-Japanese residents and tourists.
Dreas let me know in one of his posts that
it's a good idea to call them "people from
other countries." Yes, I consider that as an
option. But in a long document, people would
wish to use a variety of synonyms to avoid
being monotonous. I'd like to know as many
different words or strings of words to mean
"foreigners" as possible.
In any case, you told me that it's quite all
right to call them "foreigners." That's reassuring
to know. Thanks for your valuable input again.
63:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 07:46:15.47 n9TKM6ft.net
>>48
lines 7-8
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his half cours ★yronne★,
The word "yronne" looks interesting. If I understand
correctly, the prefix "y-" is a corrupt form of "ge-",
which is the prefix often used in modern and ancient
German to form the past participle of a verb. Whenever
I see this "y-" prefix used in any text, I say to myself,
"Oh, this is beautiful. So the passage must be from a Chaucer
or other Middle English text."
Since I don't have a Middle English Dictionary at hand,
I've just searched the OED for "yronne". The quintessential
dictionary says that it is the past participle of the verb
which means "run."
The word "run" comes from Old English "rinnan."
And this "rinnan" (the infinitive form) changed to "ronne" in Middle
English (there is a document that uses the form in the 16th century
at least). This infinitive also changed to "run", just like in modern
English, in the 16th century.
Then the past participle of the verb "rinnan" changed to "yronne"
in Middle English. This kind of information never tires me. The OED
is my beloved. I wish I could ever get to know her through and
through. But I know it's completely impossible. The world of
knowledge is just vast -- vast.
64:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 08:03:24.32 n9TKM6ft.net
>>48
line 5
And smale foweles ●maken● melodye,
And look at this verb "maken". Don't you guys think this verb looks
beautiful? This is exactly like the modern German verb "machen".
The OED says the verb "to make" took the forms of macan, macian,
and makian in Old English. The etymology section of the OED goes on
to say that the verb is cognate to the following:
Old Frisian makia, Middle Dutch ★maken★ (Dutch ★maken★),
Old Saxon makon (Middle Low German maken), Old High German mahhon
(Middle High German ●machen●, German ●machen●);
(Oxford English Dictionary, Third Edition, June 2000)
65:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 08:21:59.03 n9TKM6ft.net
>>48
line 16
Of Engelond to Canterbury they ●wende●,
The verb "wende" here is also interesting. Contemporary English does
have the word "wend." The OED says the verb "wend" comes from the
Old English "wendan". Its past tense and past participle forms were
"went" in Middle English. And these forms "went" were then used as
the past and the past participle forms of the verb "go."
That's why modern English has this inflection pattern: "go - went - went."
This is another thing I've learned today. On the other hand, the
original word inflection pattern "wend - went - went" then had to
change itself to: "wend - wended - wended" to avoid conflicting
with the pattern "go - went - went."
66:777
15/10/04 09:43:41.63 MEBP1Tr/.net
>>59
I'm not that well-read.
Most high-school students learn about the anthology.
My point was that the language is not so much different from modern Japanese.
67:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 09:55:47.54 n9TKM6ft.net
>>48
1 ●WHAN that● Aprill with his shoures soote
5 ●Whan● Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
10 ●Thanne● longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
"Whan" and "whan that" mean "when." "Thanne" means "then" according
to the Middle English Dictionary available here:
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.gutenberg.org)
The dictionary also says that one Saxon form of "whan" was "whanne."
So "whanne" and "thanne" rhyme. That's good. It's just like in
their modern English counterparts (when and then), which rhyme.
Anyway, as indicated at the beginning of this post, lines 1 and 5
begin with "Whan", which is responded to by "thanne" in line 10.
Here, the basic plot is along these lines:
WHEN such and such a season comes,
THEN lots of people feel tempted to go to pilgrimages.
68:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:06:54.49 n9TKM6ft.net
>>66
Talking about the slight differences between the ancient and
the modern forms of a language, I once read through a modern (ancient)
Icelandic grammar very quickly. I read it through but it was rather like
scanning it, without trying to memorize the grammatical rules or words
taught in it. Still it was quite clear to me that modern and ancient
Icelandic are almost identical (Old Icelandic dates back to a
millennium ago, if I remember correctly). The grammatical rules are almost
the same, for one thing. For another, the forms of the words are also
almost identical.
For example, suppose the Old Icelandic word
meaning "word" is "woooorrrddde" (I'm just making it up). Modern Icelandic
is something like "woooorrrddd". The only difference between them is
the absence of the "e" in the modern Icelandic equivalent. Every word
and every grammatical rule were the same way. There's not a single
major difference in any element of the language. It's really amazing
how conservative Icelandic people have been all these years (maybe
for more than a millennium), consciously or unconsciously refusing to
let their language change as did the English and the Japanese.
69:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:11:19.08 um9LqYRX.net
ぎゃあああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
うおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお 👀
Rock54: Caution(BBR-MD5:558464d2692f088d1d43d68e7664e878)
70:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:28:14.95 um9LqYRX.net
銀1、8250538+1091118＝9341656
銀2、6050827+600582＝6651409
農、4013186+167777＝4180963
銀3、721373+1047060+100000＝1868433
郵、79193
株（予）、1009838
コ255500
日405800
三208900
ク289700
い169200
タ172200
日63200
西357300
中203300
全計25256592
71:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:39:21.45 um9LqYRX.net
土地評価額約92000000
家評価額約30000000
別荘売却予定、家+土地評価額2100000
マイナンバー対策予定にて
別荘資産は売却中
その他貸駐車場の土地の売却は考え中
72:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:46:48.57 um9LqYRX.net
マイナンバー導入により税金課税対象者
土地+現金（株、地金）等の資産5000万以上保持者は税金を
取られる可能性あり
今から対策しておく必要性あり
73:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 10:49:56.28 um9LqYRX.net
訂正ひとつ
別荘売却予定評価額2100000→21000000
74:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 11:20:04.60 um9LqYRX.net
現在脱税している連中は
マイナンバー制度導入により
全てバレる
脱税だけは絶対にしてはあかん
金持ほど脱税するがあほや
下手したら資産差押さえくらうで～
そんでもええんか～
はよ税金だけは納めとき～
75:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 13:16:16.27 cItiFbDl.net
>>48
11 (So slepeth hem nature in hir ●corages●);
22 To Canterbury with ful devout ●corage●,
In the above lines, the word "corage(s)" is used twice. It is used to
mean "spirit(s)" or "heart(s)" unlike in modern English. Etymological
dictionaries say that the use of this word in the sense of "heart" and
"spirit" comes from Old French usage. This Francophonic usage of
the word "corage" is just one of numerous cases where Norman French-derived
words are widely used in the English of old times, more widely than
in today's English. When reading Shakespeare and other old literature,
I very frequently find the prevalent usage of French-derived words.
Old literature also seems to contain more Germanic-derived words
than today's English. Shown below are some examples:
6 Inspired hath in every ●holt and heeth
9 And smale foweles ●maken● melodye,
18 That hem hath ★holpen★ whan that they were
(to be continued)
76:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 13:17:04.99 cItiFbDl.net
Continued from >>75
Note, in particular, the word "holpen." It is the past participle of
the verb "helpen" (or "help" in modern English). The infinitive form
"helpen" is similar to modern German "helfen", while the p.p. form
"holpen" is similar to German "geholfen". I'm not familiar with
Dutch, but I think their Dutch equivalents are even more similar,
or in some cases, completely identical.
In this way, English in the old days (say, during the days of
Shakespeare or Chaucer) contained more Germanic-derived words and
Norman French-derived words than today's English. If that is so,
I feel more tempted to study a little more (if not much more) of
Old English, German, and other Germanic languages, especially
ancient ones.
77:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 13:52:39.38 cItiFbDl.net
Continued from >>76
For the word "holpen," let me say a few more words. The Old English
(or Anglo-Saxon) equivalent of "to help" was "helpan." Here's a list
of the inflected forms of the verb in OE and its relatives.
(1) OE: helpan (infinitive) - healp (past) - holpen
(2) Middle English: helpen - halp - holpen
(3) Modern German: helfen - half - geholfen
(3) Dutch, Low German: helpen - hielp (past singular) - geholpen
There seems to have been many variations of each of the above OE forms
but let me just leave it at that to simplify the discussion.
As for the Dutch equivalent of the verb "help", I consulted the
following webpage:
URLﾘﾝｸ(en.wiktionary.org)
78:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 14:21:13.05 SSToHFMI!.net
Not well read my ass. You're an artist.
79:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 15:42:54.01 cItiFbDl.net
[The Caterbury Tales]
line 12 --- Thanne longen folk to ●goon● on pilgrimages,
(I guess this means "Then people long to go on pilgrimages.")
line 78 --- And [he] wente for to ●doon● his pilgrymage.
(I guess this means "And he went to do his pilgrimage.")
The word "goon" in line 12 should mean "to go." It is similar in form
to German "gehen."
German: gehen - ging - gegangen
OE: gan - ??? - ??? (I don't know.)
ME: gon - ??? - ???
The word "doon" in line 78 should mean "to do." It is similar in form
to German "tun."
German: tun - tat - getat
OE: don - dyde - gedon
ME: don - ???
80:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 18:37:46.11 T9sdph3y.net
>>79
What a blunder!
WRONG: German: tun - tat - getat
CORRECT: German: tun - tat - ★getan★
By the way, the more I work on the English in the old days, the more
keenly I feel the importance of a knowledge of German (and other
Germanic languages) and Russian (and other Slavic languages).
I'm rather familiar with Romance languages (especially French) but
that's definitely not enough when trying to explore the historical
development of the English language.
81:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:26:13.79 um9LqYRX.net
a
b
c
d
e
f
g
h
i
j
k
l
m
n
82:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:27:16.68 um9LqYRX.net
o
p
q
r
s
t
u
v
w
x
y
z
83:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:29:11.25 um9LqYRX.net
ま
い
な
ん
ば
ー
あ
し
た
か
ら
は
い
ふ
さ
れ
る
ぞ
！
84:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:32:30.58 um9LqYRX.net
か
え
る
ぴ
ょ
こ
ぴ
ょ
こ
む
ぴ
ょ
こ
ぴ
ょ
こ
85:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:33:54.27 um9LqYRX.net
あ
わ
せ
て
ぴ
ょ
こ
ぴ
ょ
こ
み
ぴ
ょ
こ
ぴ
ょ
こ
！
86:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 20:40:12.78 um9LqYRX.net
な
ん
み
ん
も
ん
だ
い
は
ど
い
つ
の
せ
い
？
ド
イ
ツ
だ
よ
ｗ
87:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 21:30:11.33 um9LqYRX.net
ぼ
く
の
な
ま
え
は
ヤ
ン
ボ
ー
き
み
の
な
ま
え
は
マ
ー
ボ
ー
88:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/04 21:32:09.59 um9LqYRX.net
ふ
た
り
あ
わ
せ
て
ヤ
ン
マ
ー
だ
あ
ー
き
ー
み
と
ぼ
く
と
で
ヤ
ン
マ
ー
だ
あ
ー
89:臭い米国人
15/10/04 22:03:02.69 iNNt8R45!.net
>>62
I'm sorry. Even though you said it was for documents I still didn't process it.
Reevaluating your question, there's no harm in saying "tourists from abroad" when it is in writing.
(1) non-native(s)
(2) foreign visitor(s); overseas visitor(s)
(3) exchange student(s)
(4) foreign tourist(s); overseas tourist(s)
Thinking about it as I write this, overseas is used as a synonym for foreign.
90:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 03:34:58.59 /mhv+8k1.net
あ
め
り
か
ん
ご
っ
と
た
れ
ん
と
！
さ
い
も
ん
、
あ
ま
ん
だ
91:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 03:38:44.93 /mhv+8k1.net
お
ど
る
あ
ほ
う
に
み
る
あ
ほ
う
お
な
じ
あ
ほ
な
ら
お
ど
ら
に
ゃ
そ
ん
そ
ん
92:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 03:42:38.89 /mhv+8k1.net
や
め
ら
れ
な
い
と
ま
れ
な
い
ぼ
く
ら
の
わ
い
ん
で
ぃ
ん
ぐ
ろ
う
ど
う
93:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 03:45:30.16 /mhv+8k1.net
ぽ
ん
ぽ
こ
ぽ
ん
ぽ
こ
た
ぬ
き
の
は
ら
づ
つ
み
ぽ
ん
ぽ
ん
！
94:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 03:50:30.31 /mhv+8k1.net
す
ー
ぱ
ー
ま
り
お
あ
ん
ど
す
ー
ぱ
ー
る
い
ー
じ
95:Dreas
15/10/05 04:24:47.22 yhvX++MB!.net
Dreas here. I finally got my keyboard, so if you have any serious questions
about English, America or myself, this is the time.
96:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 06:51:52.39 0zUXjBct.net
WARNING: This is a very, very long post. If you (臭い米国人) or
any other person feels discouraged to read it, please just ignore
my post. No one is obliged to read or respond to it. Thank you.
>>89
>>(1) non-native(s)
>>(2) foreign visitor(s); overseas visitor(s)
>>(3) exchange student(s)
>>(4) foreign tourist(s); overseas tourist(s)
Good. Those sound idiomatic. Thanks for your input. The problem
(people may say, "Not again!") is that in some contexts, I have to
specify those non-natives are people not native to Japan, rather than
to any other country. If you are writing a document as a Japanese
governmental agency, and if you say "nonnatives," then of course
it means "people who are not Japanese."
But in some cases, we may see a document that doesn't specify
who is writing it. But still the document says something along
the lines of "★外国人★の方は～してください" (which literally means
"Foreigners are requested to do such and such a thing." Since
the document is written in Japanese, readers assume that this
word "外国人" (foreigners) means "people who are not Japanese."
(to be continued on Part 2)
97:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 06:52:41.44 0zUXjBct.net
Part 2
But what if we translate it into English? Can we leave it at
something like "★Foreigners★ are requested to do such and such a thing"?
Remember that the document does not specify who is writing it.
In that case, readers will wonder, "Who are they referring to
as 'foreigners' here?" If the document happens to be in Japan,
then the document is most probably understood to refer to
"people who are not Japanese." But what if the document is
distributed among many different countries -- and by the management
of a company run by Japanese? The author of the document, who
is probably writing under the name of the company's president,
probably assumes that what they mean by 外国人 (foreigners) here
is "people who are not Japanese."
So, when the document happens to be read in, for example, Tanzania,
and if it has been authored by a company run by a Japanese, then
the original phrase "外国人" (foreigners) should (if I understand
it correctly) be translated as "non-Japanese." That's why I am
obliged to translate "外国人" which Japanese people often use
for business purposes (especially for purposes of circulation
outside Japan) into "non-Japanese." The phrase "non-Japanese"
may sound clumsy to native English speakers. I know that in many
contexts, options (1) through (4) that you (臭い米国人) listed above
sound much better and idiomatic . But the problem is that
these contexts may change. You never know in which countries and
in which contexts the document you are translating now may be
used in the future.
(Continued on Part 3)
98:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 06:53:23.10 0zUXjBct.net
Part 3
Now, in conclusion, my question is, does "non-Japanese" in such
contexts still sound un-idiomatic? What about "non-Japanese students,
non-Japanese tourists, non-Japanese visitors, non-Japanese workers,"
and so on?
And what about "workers, products, etc. from outside Japan"?
This phrase "outside Japan" cannot be rejected altogether because
some Japanese companies do request us translators to use although
it may sound a bit funny. If you're in Japan, then the phrase
"overseas" naturally refers to "somewhere outside Japan." But what if
it happens to be in Tanzania or the Netherlands? In that case,
the phrase "overseas" is understood to mean "outside Tanzania or
the Netherlands." But the author of the document in Japanese assumes
that the phrase "海外" is understood as "outside Japan." In that case,
I am obliged to use the phrase "outside Japan" even though it may
sound a bit un-idiomatic in many contexts.
(End of my three-part post)
99:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 10:17:41.07 /mhv+8k1.net
の
ぼ
り
ざ
か
ー
く
だ
り
ざ
か
ー
な
い
て
わ
ら
っ
て
た
の
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ん
で
ー
100:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 10:45:25.89 /mhv+8k1.net
ち
ゃ
い
な
ま
ね
ー
で
う
る
お
う
に
っ
ぽ
ん
バ
ン
ザ
ー
イ
！
101:臭い米国人
15/10/05 21:25:29.68 pXcsiiox!.net
>>98
I realize your question took a lot of effort, so sorry for the curt reply.
But yes in that case you are right to use "non-Japanese" and "outside Japan" and so forth.
I gave you the generality and you were looking for the specifics.
If you have to be specific, then yes it will sound different than the general terms, but it's no less valid.
"All non-Japanese working for 〇〇 Corporation are not required to observe Japanese holidays."
Sounds just as natural as,
"All foreigners working for 〇〇 Corporation are not required to observe Japanese holidays."
With the first one being correct when it's information that doesn't stay in Japan, like you described.
102:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 22:44:46.16 /mhv+8k1.net
や
っ
た
ね
お
お
む
ら
き
ょ
う
じ
ゅ
ノ
ー
べ
ル
し
ょ
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じ
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し
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103:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 22:46:30.65 /mhv+8k1.net
や
っ
ぱ
り
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
は
せ
か
い
い
ち
ゆ
う
し
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で
す
ね
104:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 22:52:54.01 /mhv+8k1.net
お
か
ね
も
ち
し
さ
ん
も
ち
は
え
ら
い
金
の
ち
か
ら
で
な
ん
で
も
で
き
る
105:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/05 22:55:34.29 /mhv+8k1.net
ぽ
ん
ぽ
こ
た
ぬ
き
と
ぽ
ん
ぽ
こ
き
つ
ね
と
ぽ
ん
ぽ
こ
う
さ
ぎ
106:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 00:27:54.44 AxfzOeN1.net
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
は
せ
か
い
い
ち
ゆ
う
し
ゅ
う
な
み
ん
ぞ
く
107:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 00:31:53.30 AxfzOeN1.net
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
は
み
ん
な
て
ん
さ
い
せ
か
い
い
ち
あ
た
ま
が
よ
い
108:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 01:19:39.69 QosxC1RW!.net
Hey sevens,whats your history on this board?
Are you some sort ofnteacher? You're like
A literature professor.
109:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 02:27:58.78 AxfzOeN1.net
に
っ
ぽ
ん
じ
ん
は
せ
か
い
い
ち
て
ん
さ
い
！
！
！
110:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 02:33:37.36 AxfzOeN1.net
お
れ
の
マ
イ
ナ
ン
バ
ー
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
ｗ
111:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 02:44:30.86 AxfzOeN1.net
こ
い
す
る
ー
ふ
ぉ
ー
ち
ゅ
ー
ん
く
っ
き
い
ー
み
ら
い
は
そ
ん
な
わ
る
く
な
い
よ
112:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 02:53:49.52 AxfzOeN1.net
あ
り
さ
ん
ま
ー
く
の
ひ
っ
こ
し
し
ゃ
で
す
わ
た
し
が
赤
井
で
す
ｗ
113:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 03:04:44.76 AxfzOeN1.net
き
の
こ
の
こ
ー
の
こ
げ
ん
き
の
こ
き
の
こ
の
や
ま
は
お
い
し
い
よ
ｗ
114:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 03:26:25.73 AxfzOeN1.net
ああああああああ
ああああああああ
いいいいいいいい
いいいいいいいい
うううううううう
うううううううう
ええええええええ
ええええええええ
おおおおおおおお
おおおおおおおお
かかかかかかかか
かかかかかかかか
きききききききき
きききききききき
くくくくくくくく
くくくくくくくく
けけけけけけけけ
けけけけけけけけ
ここここここここ
ここここここここ
カトちゃんペッｗ
115:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 03:33:22.00 AxfzOeN1.net
あああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
うおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお
ぎゃあああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
116:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 07:14:05.12 FCx/Znsy.net
>>101
You're so kind, 臭い米国人, thank you very much for reading my lengthy
post and answering it.
117:777
15/10/06 08:46:49.19 SkbZR64Z.net
>108
>Are you some sort of a teacher? You're like
>A literature professor.
Not at all.
Why do you think so?
118:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 09:57:06.96 AxfzOeN1.net
ぽ
っ
ち
ゃ
り
が
き
に
な
っ
た
ら
だ
い
え
っ
と
！
ｗ
119:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:01:36.68 AxfzOeN1.net
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
の
て
ん
さ
い
き
ょ
う
じ
ゅ
お
お
む
ら
き
ょ
う
じ
ゅ
120:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:06:42.65 AxfzOeN1.net
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
は
み
ん
な
て
ん
さ
い
の
ー
べ
る
し
ょ
う
と
る
ほ
ど
て
ん
さ
い
121:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:09:40.64 AxfzOeN1.net
さ
っ
ぽ
ろ
ぽ
て
と
ば
ー
べ
き
ゅ
ー
あ
じ
は
お
い
し
い
ね
！
122:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:16:36.95 AxfzOeN1.net
ま
た
ま
た
に
ほ
ん
じ
ん
の
て
ん
さ
い
ぶ
り
が
し
ょ
う
め
い
さ
れ
た
123:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:47:09.10 AxfzOeN1.net
き
ょ
う
は
ぷ
ら
ち
な
か
っ
て
き
ま
し
ょ
う
ね
10
き
ろ
ぐ
ら
む
124:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 10:53:11.92 AxfzOeN1.net
え
ー
け
ー
び
ー
は
か
み
え
ぬ
え
む
え
む
は
あ
い
ど
る
125:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 11:01:13.15 AxfzOeN1.net
や
ん
ぼ
ー
ま
ー
ぼ
ー
て
ん
き
よ
ほ
う
ヤ
ン
マ
ー
126:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 11:50:08.91 cZou15Xc.net
[The possible significance of the prefix "fl-" as an indicator
of something lightweight, hence moving, floating, etc.]
As a lover of language, I sometimes come up with a random idea about
the English language. One such idea that has visited me one of these
days is that the prefix (or rather, the initial word-beginning sound
"fl-") might signify something lightweight, hence moving, floating,
or otherwise.
Let me explain. Look at the words listed below. The list of words and
definitions is from the Pocket Oxford English Dictionary (POD), 11th,
2013.
flaccid --- soft and limp
flag
flagellate -- to whip someone
flagellum -- a long, thin projection which enables many single-
celled organisms to swim
flail -- to swing the arms or legs wildly
flake -- a small, flat, very thin piece of something
flame -- a hot glowing body of ignited gas produced by
something on fire
flannel -- a kind of softly woven woollen fabric
flap -- to move up and down or from side to side
flare -- a sudden brief burst of flame or light
flash -- to shine with a bright but brief or irregular light
flat -- habing a level and even surface
flavour -- the distinctive taaste of a food or drink
flea -- a small wingless jumping insect
fledge -- (of a young bird) to develop wing feathers that are
large enough for flight
127:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 12:42:30.85 AxfzOeN1.net
あああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
うああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
ぎゃあああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
128:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 12:44:38.26 AxfzOeN1.net
うぎゃああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
おおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお
ぬわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわ
129:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 12:46:56.70 cZou15Xc.net
Continued from >>126
flee -- to run away
fleece -- the wool coat of a sheep; a soft, warm fabric with
a pile, or a garment made from this
fleet -- fast and nimble
flex -- to bend a limb or joint
flick -- to make a sudden sharp movement
flicker -- to shine or burn unsteadily
flight (fly)
flimsy -- weak and fragile
flinch -- to make a quick, nervous movement as a reaction
to fear or pain
fling -- to throw or move forcefully
flint -- [My note: Note that when you hit flint stone with
with something hard, it produces a sound that might
sound like "flint." The word "flint" (and its etymological
cognates( might have originated as an onomatopoeia.
flip -- to turn over with a quick, smooth movement.
flirt -- to behave as if to trying to attract someone sexually
but without serious intentions
flit -- to move quickly and lightly
flitter -- to move quickly here and there
float
flocculent -- resembling tufts of wool
flock -- a soft material for stuffing cushions and quilts,
made of torn-up cloth or waste wool
floe -- a sheet of floating ice
130:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 12:50:13.14 AxfzOeN1.net
うぎゃああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
ぬわおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおおお
けけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけけ
131:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 12:54:38.53 AxfzOeN1.net
き
も
ぶ
た
バ
カ
う
そ
つ
き
り
け
じ
ょ
お
お
バ
カ
く
そ
お
ん
な
Ｏ
Ｂ
Ｏ
132:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:01:57.49 AxfzOeN1.net
さ
む
ら
ご
う
ち
あ
ん
ど
Ｏ
Ｂ
Ｏ
あ
ん
ど
さ
の
詐
欺
師
さ
ん
じ
ゅ
う
し
133:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:03:42.59 cZou15Xc.net
Continued from >>129
flue -- a passage in a chimney for smoke and waste gases
fluent -- from Latin "fluere" (to flow)
fluff -- soft fibres gathered in small light clumps (--> fluffy)
fluid -- from Latin "fluere" (to flow)
flummery -- empty talk or compliments (My note: It must
be something light, not heavy.)
flutter -- to fly unsteadily by flapping the wings quickly and lightly
flux -- continuous change [from Latin "fluere" (to flow)]
fly -- to move through the air
fly -- a flying insect
134:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:05:23.00 AxfzOeN1.net
ぼ
く
の
な
ま
え
は
や
ん
ぼ
う
き
み
の
な
ま
え
は
ち
ん
ぼ
う
ｗ
135:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:06:55.55 AxfzOeN1.net
ふ
た
り
あ
わ
せ
て
や
ん
ち
ん
だ
あ
！
！
！
ｗ
136:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:08:09.11 AxfzOeN1.net
ち
い
さ
な
も
の
か
ら
お
お
き
な
も
の
ま
で
う
ご
か
す
ち
か
ら
だ
137:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:10:23.23 AxfzOeN1.net
ふ
た
り
あ
わ
せ
て
や
り
ち
ん
だ
あ
き
ー
み
と
ぼ
く
と
で
や
り
ち
ん
だ
あ
138:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:16:08.34 AxfzOeN1.net
う
そ
つ
き
さ
ぎ
し
く
そ
お
ん
な
り
け
じ
ょ
に
い
た
う
そ
つ
き
Ｏ
Ｂ
Ｏ
！
139:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:20:18.66 AxfzOeN1.net
も
と
り
け
じ
ょ
く
そ
お
ん
な
Ｏ
Ｂ
Ｏ
は
こ
く
み
ん
の
ぜ
い
き
ん
か
え
せ
！
140:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:22:46.01 cZou15Xc.net
From >>126, >>129, and >>133, I hope you can see what I meant when
I said that to me, the suffix "fl-" evokes the concept of lightness,
hence the concept of moving, floating, and quick change.
Let me again pick up some of the examples I gave above. Look at the words
"flow" and "float." These words signify something light. Nothing heavy
can "flow" or "float." It must always be light. The concept of "fly,"
too, signifies something light. Nothing heavy can fly. Only light
things fly. Flies that bother you by attacking your favorite food
fly in the air and they are also lightweight. They seem as if
floating in the air. They also seem as if to flow through the air.
How about this?
flagellum -- a long, thin projection which enables many single-
celled organisms to swim
Flagella, too, must be lightweight. Otherwise, they can't enable
small creatures to swim. Flakes are also light. That's why they
can fly, float, and fly in the air. Flames of fire also evoke
a sense of lightness. Otherwise they can't go this way and that
so quickly. The same goes to the concepts of flares and flaring.
Flannel is also lightweight. That's why they are soft. Flavor, too,
must evoke a sense of lightness. Otherwise no flavor can "flow through
the air" to get into your nostrils to make you smell. Flashing also
evokes a sense of lightness. Otherwise no flashlight can emit beams
that quickly. Fleas are also light. So are the feathers of a
full-fledged young bird. To be able to flee, you should not be heavy.
Fleece is naturally lightweight and soft. Fleet means "fast and nimble"
and should therefore evoke a sense of something lightweight.
On and on and on my explanations may go. I think that what I meant to
say is now clear.
141:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:24:47.73 AxfzOeN1.net
ぬわ～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～
うおわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわわ
おんぎゃあああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ
142:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:29:14.33 AxfzOeN1.net
あああああああああああああ
あああああああああああああ
いいいいいいいいいいいいい
いいいいいいいいいいいいい
ううううううううううううう
ううううううううううううう
えええええええええええええ
えええええええええええええ
おおおおおおおおおおおおお
おおおおおおおおおおおおお
おおおおおおおおおおおおお
かとちゃんぺッ！
ｗ
143:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:35:24.15 AxfzOeN1.net
さ
の
ぱ
く
り
え
ん
ぶ
れ
む
は
は
ず
か
し
く
な
い
の
か
？
あ
？
144:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 13:43:16.86 AxfzOeN1.net
Ｏ
Ｂ
Ｏ
は
あ
り
ま
ぁ
～
す
と
か
い
っ
て
は
ず
か
し
く
な
い
の
？
145:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:04:42.72 AxfzOeN1.net
さ
む
ら
ご
う
ち
の
ご
ー
す
と
ら
い
た
ー
は
な
ぜ
は
や
く
し
ん
そ
う
を
146:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:11:19.70 cZou15Xc.net
[This time, the significance of the prefix "fl-"]
So much for the possible significance of the suffix "fl-". Now let's
move on to what the prefix "gl-" might signify in word formation.
I don't know what professional linguists say, but to me at least,
the prefix (or rather the initial sounds) "gl-" evokes a sense of
light or brilliance.
Look at the words listed below:
(1) glacial (= relating to ice, especially in the form of glaciers)
(2) glacier
(3) glad (Being glad evokes a facial expression that shines.)
(4) glamour (Glamor -- or an attractive and exciting quality -- is
naturally brilliant.)
(5) glance (When you glance at something, your eyes shine.)
(6) glare
(7) glass (Glass naturally shines.)
(8) glaze (to fit panes of glass into a window frame)
(to be continued)
147:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:11:52.00 cZou15Xc.net
continued from >>146
(9) gleam
(10) glee
(11) glide (Gliding signifies an act of sliding on a slippery surface,
which might reminds you of a shining surface, like ice, which shines.)
(12) glimmer
(13) glimpse
(14) glisten
(15) glitter
(16) glitz
(17) glory (glorify, glorious)
(18) gloss (glossy)
(19) glow
(20) glower (to have an angry or sullen expression -- Note that an angry
expression emits some kind of light. Every impressive or strong
facial expression "shines" in some way.)
148:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:16:34.25 AxfzOeN1.net
ご
ー
す
と
ら
い
た
ー
を
つ
か
え
ば
な
に
を
や
っ
て
も
い
い
の
か
？
149:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:18:47.01 AxfzOeN1.net
きゃややややややややややややややややややややややややややややややややや
わをんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんんん
むむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむむ
150:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:21:12.97 AxfzOeN1.net
に
ほ
ん
の
ぜ
い
き
ん
は
も
っ
と
ひ
さ
い
し
ゃ
に
つ
か
わ
れ
る
べ
き
！
151:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:24:29.95 AxfzOeN1.net
き
ぬ
が
わ
ひ
さ
い
し
ゃ
を
ぜ
い
き
ん
で
も
っ
と
た
す
け
る
べ
き
！
152:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:29:02.31 AxfzOeN1.net
な
ぜ
げ
ん
ぱ
つ
を
も
う
さ
い
か
ど
う
す
る
の
か
？
お
か
し
い
だ
ろ
？
153:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:34:15.94 AxfzOeN1.net
と
う
ほ
く
の
し
ん
さ
い
ひ
が
い
し
ゃ
を
み
ん
な
で
た
す
け
よ
う
！
154:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 14:38:33.07 AxfzOeN1.net
こ
れ
か
ら
は
た
い
ふ
う
の
さ
い
が
い
に
そ
な
え
よ
う
！
155:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/06 21:27:54.06 AxfzOeN1.net
び
っ
ち
び
っ
ち
ち
ゃ
っ
ぷ
び
ち
び
ち
お
ん
な
156:臭い米国人
15/10/06 23:13:02.12 YE0t0nl+!.net
>>116
No problem, it's nice to answer something that's not in the 英語で雑談 thread.
>>117
He asks because you're well read, even among English natives.
A lot of English natives don't care to read, which is why a lot of the "news" stories are so full of pictures.
>>147
Those are some interesting theories, have you looked at etymologies for all of those words?
I am not a scholar but from my understanding, in order for a set of letters to be an affix, it has to have been
defined as such in ancient writings, not in contemporary usage. By which I mean Latin, Greek, et cetera.
157:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 07:53:34.32 asdaY49v.net
>>156
About etymology, I know what you mean. Yes, of course, we must not
forget how each of those words must have looked and meant in the old
days, not only in Greek and Latin but Old Icelandic, Gothic, Old High
German, and so on. I have two important etymological sources at hand
(one of which is the 20-volume OED) and have tried, whenever possible,
to look into the older senses and forms of the words too. The senses
of the words I cited above are from the POD, a modern English dictionary,
but I put them there just for reference.
Now, even if the modern senses of words may be quite different from
their ancient ones, I believe that it is still instructive to examine
the words in terms of their modern senses as well. In doing so, I
always try to grasp the most prevalent, the most dominant concept
that each word seems to have, not a very specific, special, slang-like,
or eccentric senses.
Take the example of the suffix "sl-". Suppose there is a word "sloxapp",
which I don't think exists. But just suppose it exists. And suppose
again that it is cognate with the Greek word "loxab", which I don't
think exists either. Now, if the Greek word has no "s-" at the beginning,
is it meaningless to talk about the suffix "sl-" at the beginning of
the (imaginary) English word "sloxapp"? I don't think so.
(continued on Part 2)
158:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 07:54:34.57 asdaY49v.net
Part 2
How can it be meaningful? The point is that Greeks may have tended to
drop the "s-" sound at the top because they were incapable of
pronouncing "s" and "l" together (which may not be the case, but
I am making this imaginary argument just to illustrate my point).
Now, while the Greeks may have been uncomfortable with pronouncing "sl-",
so that they may have developed a new form "lox-", the English may
have liked the form "sl-". It may be because the sound "sl-" (this
sequence of "s" followed by "l") may have evoked in their minds
a sense of lightweight-ness, hence motion and quick movement and
floating, and so on.
That's what I wanted to emphasize. Each people (each nation or each
dialectal group of people) has their own linguistic tastes. One
ethnic group likes a particular group of sounds or strings of sounds,
which another people may hate. What do they like and hate particular
sounds or strings of sounds? For one thing, that may be because of
the anatomy of their tongue, jaw bones, and so on. For another thing,
partly due to their local climactic, geographic, and other conditions,
they may have developed a particular system of tastes and worldviews.
And it is these tastes and worldviews that may have affected their
choice of sounds and strings of sounds, hence words.
(Continued on Part 3)
159:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 07:54:57.26 asdaY49v.net
Continued on Part 3
In the course of our history, which may have lasted two million years,
we must have used language. Just as modern people do, every ancient
person must have accidentally or deliberately developed thousands of
words in the course of their life. I myself have coined some words
that I thought are appropriate. Some of them were accepted by some
others around me. Many other words I coined were rejected by other
people. In this way, through the two million years, we must have
produced, chosen, and rejected sounds, strings of sounds, and words.
It is in this way that I imagine that the ancient English would have
developed some notion of the suffix "sl-" somehow related to the
concept of lightweight-ness, hence motion, quick movement, or floating.
I apologize for my awkward writing. I know my theory is not quite
well organized and, besides, I am just a native speaker of Japanese,
still struggling in my study of English. I hope that, even though I
may be just babbling here, I may some day -- through all these humble
and seemingly haphazard attempts -- manage to develop a beautifully
organized set of theories.
160:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 08:19:39.12 asdaY49v.net
>>158
>>the sound "sl-" (this sequence of "s" followed by "l") may have
>>evoked in their minds a sense of lightweight-ness, hence motion
>>and quick movement and floating, and so on.
=====
Oops! What a blunder again! This argument was NOT about my argument
on the "sl-", BUT on the "fl-". I mixed them up. I had developed
another argument on the suffix "sl-", which I believe must have
evoked in the minds of the English a sense of sliding or slipping.
Last night I wanted to talk about this "sl-" suffix too. This "sl-",
just like the suffixes "fl-" and "gl-" that I discussed yesterday,
seems as if it had originated as an onomatopoeia. Just pronounce "slide"
or "slip." Don't their sounds evoke in you a sense of slipperiness
or sliding motion? The sounds themselves seem as if they had meaning.
This "S" sound, as you can see, can be made to last forever, like
ssssssssssssss, just as the sound produced by snakes. This sound is,
in this sense, quite different from, for example, G, which occurs
abruptly like an eruption and doesn't last for more than a second.
The sound L, too, lasts forever. Just pronounce LLLLLLLLL. It does
last forever. Sadly this sound is hard for Japanese to pronounce.
Anyway, the sounds S and L are both long-lasting. And I suspect that
this long-lasting nature of the sounds S and L is one factor that
contributes to the evocation by the suffix "sl-" of a sense of sliding
or slipperiness.
161:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 08:34:04.67 asdaY49v.net
At >>157-159, I tried to argue that even the modern forms and senses
of words containing a particular affix may be instructive. But I think
I failed. I'm sorry.
What I really wanted to say was that, even when we confine our studies
to modern times, say, only a period of three to four hundred years,
we may argue that the English may have rejected or selected particular
groups of sounds and strings of sounds, hence affixes, according to
their tastes and characteristics derived from their particular
anatomical, climactic, geographical, cultural, psychological,
and/or other circumstances.
Taking again the example of "slaxxap". Suppose that word has existed
from the 17th century having a particular sense that has persisted
up until today. And suppose that the word is cognate with (ie sharing
the same etymological origin as) the Greek word "laxabb".
Why did the English put the S sound at the beginning, while the Greeks
did not? It may be because the English liked the string of sounds "sl-"
for the reasons I described above. And the psychological and other
characteristics of the English may have developed the supposedly
original form "laxxabb" into "slaxxap" to suit their tastes.
And why did they like that particular string of sounds (sl-)?
It may be because the English language already had many other words
starting with "sl-" meaning something related to the concept of sliding.
With analogy, the English would have, a little before the 17th century,
added the sound S at the beginning to harmonize the word with the
others.
162:777
15/10/07 11:27:15.93 kkWOywAY.net
>>156
>He asks because you're well read, even among English natives.
I have no idea why you think I'm well read.
Maybe you mistook me for someone else(for example, >>42).
163:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 12:35:11.40 nT/Z79od.net
["Romeo and Juliet" -- again]
Well, now, then, I guess all my lengthy, pseudo-academic talk about
affixes and other etymological stuff has bored you. (Or rather,
there may be nobody left here.) So I'll resume my etymological
discussions later on and get back to "Romeo and Juliet."
At first, R&J bored me. Or rather, all Shakespeare bored me. As a
serious student of the English language, I've always thought that
I should some day tackle Shakespeare in earnest. Whether I come to
love him or not in the end, I thought I just had to study him if
I really wanted to become a reasonably good speaker/writer of English.
But sadly, Shakespeare bored me. I tried reading "Hamlet" it in
Japanese when I was a high school student. After only dozens of
pages, I got so bored I just couldn't go on. I tried several other
plays in Japanese. They again bored me. I tried Charles Lamb's
"Tales from Shakespeare" in the original when I was, say, 30 or so.
It didn't interest me much either. I then tried two dozens of pages
or so of "Hamlet" in the original with some notes in its Arden
Shakespeare edition when I was 40 or so. This time I realized the
profound effect of Shakespearean language on modern English, but
my reading of it, or rather my attempt at it, was not enough to
incite me to go on studying it for more than ten hours.
(continued on Part 2)
164:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 12:36:03.18 nT/Z79od.net
Part 2
When 777, another poster in this thread as well as elsewhere on
this BBS for English learners, set up his own thread designed
specifically for his commentary on "Hamlet." He did a good job
for a month or two despite the malicious jealousy-filled attacks
against him from morons. I was delighted to see him courageously
tackle this world of Shakespeare, which seems almost esoteric to us
ordinary learners of English. Shakespeare is tough enough even for
students currently majoring in English literature and studying full time
under the supervision of college professors. So much the harder
for us, literature major or not, who graduated a long time ago
from college.
Ah, yes, I remember, two years before that, I had heard two
recordings of "Hamlet" and one recording of "Romeo and Juliet"
on YouTube. These recordings are by volunteers and accessible to
the public free of charge, but they are really well-made.
The Shakespeare recording I liked best was that of "Romeo and Juliet"
at the following link:
(continued on Part 3)
165:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 12:36:32.56 nT/Z79od.net
Part 3
Act 2 - Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.youtube.com)
The above link directs you to the part of Romeo performed by my
favorite actor. His voice is just beautiful and acts magnificently.
How he voices his admiration for Juliet, who is standing on the
elevated platform high above him!
This Romeo actor, together with the actor playing "Juliet," attracted
me so much that I heard the entire performance of the play. I had
never read R&J either in Japanese or in English. I had heard the
performance in the original right away, while following the text
displayed synchronously with the performance. Although I don't
think I understood the language well enough, I think I grasped
the essence, or rather, the heart of the language and performance.
I fell in love with the performance and Shakespeare at that time.
That is my first serious encounter with Shakespeare. That happened
about three years ago.
166:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/07 13:13:26.70 Z7I30e4W.net
Part 4
There are several movie versions of "Romeo and Juliet" available on
YouTube. The movie featuring Olivia Hussey and that featuring
Leonardo DiCaprio are very famous but I don't like them.
They just bore me. Here is one of the R&J movie renderings that I like:
R&J 1976 (The heroine is a magnificent actor.)
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.youtube.com)
I saw several other renderings on YouTube, but I can't seem to
find them now. They must still be there. When I find them, I'll
show you where they are.
167:臭い米国人
15/10/07 23:57:37.92 l1AnCdDB!.net
>>162
Perhaps so. But the general consensus seems that the posters in this thread are either English natives, like myself, or are well read, such as >>157+ is.
>>166
I get what you're going at with your explanation, but you've obviously devoted more time to it than I have. So I don't really have a rebuttal for you.
However about the Romeo and Juliet thing, I don't think you, or anyone else for that matter, really needs to understand the particular works of
older authors -- like Shakespeare for English or 夏目漱石 for Japanese -- in order to use the language well.
This is coming from a person who did a thesis on 日本語の書き言葉の歴史、but at the same time has never bothered to read any of Shakespeare's works.
This is definitely a rant, but it's not direct toward you - sorry. I think it's great that you enjoy etymology, as I enjoy it as well, just that the general consensus for English is that
one needs to study The Great Bard in order to really master the modern language. When in fact I feel that knowing the influence he had on the language itself is more than
anyone needs, it is especially not more important than the modern grammar and usage of words. Just like I won't expect a native to know 契沖's criticism of 行阿's 仮名遣い
in order to know if 多い is おおい or おうい。
168:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/08 06:48:44.26 G+FXUZsT.net
>>167
Thanks for your response. You're right about our not having to have
a deep knowledge of The Bard in order to use modern English well.
My reasoning was not exact. As you say, it's important to know how and
where Shakespearean language has influenced the subsequent development
of English, hence the birth of modern English.
Actually I confess that whatever arguments I may have been making
about my having to study Shakespeare and other classics in order to
become a good English speaker is just a pack of excuses on my part. I need all
these excuses to keep motivating myself. I desperately need them in
order not to lead a lazy life. In fact I hate the modern world. Or
rather, I hate whatever I see before my eyes. I hate people as I see
them today. I hate them because of their laziness. I hate myself because
I tend to be lazy and I'm not as motivated as I think I should.
(continued)
169:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/08 06:49:16.84 G+FXUZsT.net
Continued from >>168
What has essentially spurred me on to study English all these decades?
I've always convinced myself that a good knowledge was a must for me
to survive, to earn my living. Yes, my knowledge of English has fed me.
But that's not all. Just to feed yourself in Japan doesn't take all the
desperate, painful, clumsy, half-maddening, bull-like efforts that
I have been making all these decades. What, then, has motivated me? It's
because English, which is essentially *not* necessary in Japan to survive,
at least not when I was young, keeps me feel as if I were not in this
world that I hate. If I have to speak, write, hear, and read Japanese
all the time, I quickly begin to feel that I am part of this maddeningly boring world.
And why the classics, which are excruciatingly difficult for me? Why Shakespeare? It is
because when reading Shakespeare I can savor the luxury of forgetting
all about this ugly, idiotic modern world as I live today.
Of course I know the world must have been full of crap throughout the
history, including the Japan in the days of The Tales of Genji and
the England in the days of Shakespeare. I know that. But still I enjoy
this forgetfulness I have when reading something remote from whatever
I see and touch today.
170:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/08 07:00:33.70 G+FXUZsT.net
Besides, when reading materials and expressing myself in English, I
can strangely let myself do so very freely, more freely than when
doing so in my mother tongue. That seems to be something that happens all the time
to people in general. That happened to Samuel Beckett too, who was an almost
complete bilingual: English and French. He wrote his works in both of
the languages. He said he could express himself much better and more
freely in French, his second language that he began to learn after
the age of 10 or so. He said that when writing in English, he
felt dragged along by the long history and conventions, whether good
or bad, of his Irish traditions and things like that. When writing in
French, he was free from all such nasty conventions.
171:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/08 07:26:43.63 G+FXUZsT.net
Fyodor Dostoevsky "Crime and Punishment"
I love "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoevksy tremendously. I
first read it in Japanese -- once. Then, several years later, I read
it in English. I loved the English version so much that I read several
other English versions by various translators. I even read it in a
French version too. Altogether, I have read it 12 times maybe. And I
have listened to two recordings of the novel on YouTube -- many times.
As for the Blackstone Audio recording by professional actor Anthony
Heald (which is now available on YouTube), I think I've listened to it
dozens of times -- or even a hundred times maybe. But I don't listen
to it very carefully. I always listen to it while walking, putting out
my laundry, doing other household chores, or for some time in bed
before going to sleep. So, of course, my listening to the recording is
not enough to appreciate the whole of the novel.
But still, there are times when I think I do get to appreciate the
profoundest meaning of what is written there. I can't help emphasizing
that I love the novel itself as written by Dostoevsky, the recording
as performed by Anthony Heald, and the English translation produced by
Constance Garnett (a famous Russian-English translator about a
century ago). These three elements have combined almost divinely to
have produced this splendid masterpiece performance that I have been
listening to with so much joy.
172:Dreas
15/10/08 15:38:52.67 dusibdDj!.net
Fuck bro, I was gonna say something but you've swamped the chat :/
This is not nessesarily a bad thing but... Have you ever considered writing a book?
173:777
15/10/08 21:19:32.04 zTByIZxf.net
I think most British people are accustomed to American English through movies, TV shows, songs, etc.
But how about American people?
Do most native speakers of American English have no problem in understanding spoken British English?
174:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/08 22:30:34.90 Oaq/4FlN!.net
depends on the accents. Ad you know, america is HUGE; this means that the words and way of speaking are sometimes quite different.
The UK is a fraction of its size, but is also diverse with a... Messy history.
The vernacular for the two languages can be quite different but the accent is usually easy enough to understand;
But some accents from america and Britain are considered crude or unpleasant, such as cockney or the southern American accent.
175:臭い米国人
15/10/08 23:58:26.15 24UZ9jX9!.net
>>171
I think the reason people can express themselves more freely in their non-Native tongues is because when learning the non-Native language,
they will learn it in isolation. That is they aren't influenced by the societal norms of that language like when learning their Native tongues.
For example: a Spanish native learning English wants to talk about his black friend. Now in Spanish, black is "Negro" and is an everyday word.
So when he looks up Negro online for an English equivalent, he might find that it is used to describe black people. However he does not learn
that the word used like this has a sense of endearment if he is black as well, but otherwise it is seen as hate speech when used by non-blacks.
Thus even if this speaker is corrected, because he grew up in an area where English was not used by his community, he never got the imprint
of "correctness" that society teaches children in using the language.
I wrote this part last before leaving, if it's confusing please let me know and I'll try to explain better in my next post.
>>173
Accents aren't really that bad for different versions of English. The one most natives struggle with however, is Indians speaking English.
Indian English is vastly different in that it changes the grammar dramatically in addition to the accent people have. While going from British
English to American English or its "derivatives" (Canadian English, Australian English, New Zealand English), there is almost no grammatical change
only an accent on the words.
176:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/09 10:39:19.51 H+CwHK3g.net
>>175
Most natives struggle with Indian English?! No wonder we nonnatives
have to struggle with it. I'm a lot relieved!
And thanks for responding to my statement to the effect that I strangely
feel freer in reading materials and expressing myself in a foreign language.
177:777
15/10/09 12:40:56.41 jDD7mLvc.net
How about these British expressions?
As for me, I only knew the meaning of bloke.
a bit of how's your father
bloke
brolly
chuffed to be bits
the dreaded lurgy
gobsmacked
grub's up
kerfuffle
knackered
know your onions
More tea vicar?
skivvy
sod off
Sod's law
takes the biscuit
the bee's knee
20 Essential British English Expressions - Volume 1
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.youtube.com)
178:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/09 14:29:58.64 dsgEJS4O!.net
Ohi, just testing to see if my IP is blocked on this channel.
179:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/09 21:05:52.16 mMl5QKi2.net
How many native English speakers are watching this thread, I wonder?
180:臭い米国人
15/10/09 23:14:24.06 9AO3aaMz!.net
>>176
No problem.
>>177
I've heard several of these before, but for some I can't quite explain their meaning, so it's been a while.
However these ones I remember well:
bloke = fellow, person
gobsmacked = surprised
knackered = tired
sod off = piss off/ fuck off
the bee's knees = this is actually used in American English a lot too, it means something that's wonderful or excellent or the best of something.
>>179
I try to read it every morning. Dreas seems to reply a lot too, so at least two.
181:777
15/10/10 07:01:18.61 poHnWBzM.net
>>167
>However about the Romeo and Juliet thing, I don't think you, or anyone else
>for that matter, really needs to understand the particular works of older authors
>-- like Shakespeare for English or 夏目漱石 for Japanese -- in order to use the language well.
Maybe so.
However, some knowledge about his works seems to be common one among educated native English speakers.
For example, the following phrases are frequently quoted in novels, movies, TV shows, etc.
To be, or not to be: that is the question.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Get thee to a nunnery.
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo?
What's in a name? A rose by any name would smell as sweet.
If music be the food of love, play on.
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
182:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/10 19:27:07.54 nUg7aVGm.net
>>181
I just wanted to produce a parody of the Shakespearean phrases
presented by 777. No offense to anybody. Just an innocent joke.
(1) To be, or not to be: that is the question.
---> 渡米 oder not 渡米: das ist ein Problem.
["渡米" (tobei) means "go to America."]
(2) There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
---> There is more money to be hidden in a tax haven on the earth, Whore-ration,
Than are dreamt of in your economics.
(3) Get thee to a nunnery.
---> Forget it with Sean Connery.
(4) All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
---> All the world's a cage, and all the men and women merely prisoners.
(5) Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo?
---> Row me there, row me there! Wherefore dost thou not row me there?
(6) What's in a name? A rose by any name would smell as sweet.
---> What's in a game? A rise in scores in any game
doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.
(7) If music be the food of love, play on.
---> If a Muse be a fool for love-making, play around.
(8) Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
---> Shall I condemn thee to summon the Devil?
183:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/10 23:26:07.66 fkZfuu3H!.net
>>176
DREAS REPRESENT, WHOOP WHOOP
>>177
When I said that there was a difference in vernacular, this is what I meant. Those would all be understood, but would also seem bizzare or out of place.
184:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/10 23:28:05.34 fkZfuu3H!.net
>>183
This was supposed to respond to 180, but the reply system is screwing me over a little
185:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 12:19:49.94 C7j/S9Gs.net
"Pensees" by Blaise Pascal
SECTION XI THE PROPHECIES
692
When I see the blindness and the wretchedness of man, when I regard
the whole silent universe, and man without light, left to himself,
and, as it were, lost in this corner of the universe, without knowing
who has put him there, what he has come to do, what will become of
him at death, and incapable of all knowledge, I become terrified,
like a man who should be carried in his sleep to a dreadful desert
island, and should awake without knowing where he is, and without
means of escape. And thereupon I wonder how people in a condition so
wretched do not fall into despair. I see other persons around me of
a like nature. I ask them if they are better informed than I am. They
tell me that they are not. And thereupon these wretched and lost
beings, having looked around them, and seen some pleasing objects,
have given and attached themselves to them. For my own part, I have
not been able to attach myself to them, and, considering how strongly
it appears that there is something else than what I see, I have
examined whether this God has not left some sign of Himself.
I see many contradictory religions, and consequently all false save
one. Each wants to be believed on its own authority, and threatens
unbelievers. I do not therefore believe them. Every one can say this;
every one can call himself a prophet. But I see that Christian
religion wherein prophecies are fulfilled; and that is what every
one cannot do.
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.gutenberg.org)
186:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 12:26:05.24 C7j/S9Gs.net
Man is a rope stretched between the animal and the Superman --
a rope over an abyss.
A dangerous crossing, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking-back,
a dangerous trembling and halting.
"Thus Spake Zarathustra" (Also Sprach Zarathustra)
URLﾘﾝｸ(www.gutenberg.org)
187:777
15/10/11 13:27:33.66 4/4FNa2d.net
>>167
Speaking of 夏目漱石, I recently read most(perhaps 80%) of his novels.
To be honest, I was not impressed.
The only novel I found mildly interesting is "坊ちゃん".
I guess either I'm blind or he is overrated.
188:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 13:52:33.23 C7j/S9Gs.net
>>187
Yes, maybe he's overrated. Perhaps many people think Soseki Natsume
must be a great writer because he's frequently quoted and that all
school textbooks quote him.
As for me, I don't care what textbooks or the rest of the public
say about Soseki Natsume. I don't know whether he is one of the most
artistically talented writers or not. But I still like him because of
the gentleness and love that his style evokes. He is gentle and loving
to his readers. That's what matters. And I think that's why he's
loved by his readers. He soothes the injured feelings of people.
And I don't think many of his readers even care whether he's actually
talented or not.
189:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 14:01:52.09 C7j/S9Gs.net
>>187
Probably you don't feel impressed by Soseki Natsume because you don't
find his plots intriguing enough. Well, Soseki's novels are not the
kind of works in which to seek plot. Soseki is interesting to read
in terms of style. That's what matters, I think.
Basically, when I read literature, including Soseki, Shakespeare, and
E. Bronte, I don't care about the plots they offer. All I care about
is their styles: the beauty, rhythm, and musicality of their language.
If you are seeking plot, then I suggest you stick to John Grisham
and other contemporary best-selling novelists instead of reading
Soseki or other classics. Classics are in general boring in plot,
I guess.
190:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 21:08:27.60 6+xuOewo.net
Crime Poo and Bakae
191:臭い米国人
15/10/11 21:14:23.50 ZOSgUW2Z!.net
>>187
Like I was saying before, I don't think natives need to know the particular works of the authors academia consider "greats".
But like you pointed out in >>181 there are expressions from these "greats" that are used in common parlance.
I suspect that 夏目漱石 has influenced Japanese in the same way with several expressions,
but I can't really remember any at this moment.
Also, I rather like 芥川龍之介 better.
192:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/11 21:28:37.41 C7j/S9Gs.net
--- A bit of nonsense ---
In this world there are just you and me
In the after-life we will just play Frisbee
Because everybody there is very, very wealthy
We won't have to suffer any more beggary
You won't have to bring any dowry
Occasionally we'll be able to afford some foolery
Who is watching us from beyond the sky?
God? Buddha? A huge scientist looking into his telescope?
Is the scientist sending us a gift of lullaby?
Or is he trying to deprive us of our hope?
Who in the world is that woman standing by?
Is she by any chance also a misanthrope?
Why do the two of them never cease to sigh?
Do they not at all know how to cope?
Why do they refuse to say to us "Hi"?
They are considering destroying us
They have been bringing about a variety of ills
About which we humans have to make much fuss
Such as many an economic crisis that disables us from paying our bills
And politicians have to be preoccupied with numerous problems to discuss
With shadows of despair over people whom such a crisis kills
193:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/12 19:47:48.61 i7/NMF0m.net
--- A nymph came dancing from Heaven ---
Once came a blonde nymph came dancing from Heaven
Sitting down beside me, she smiled a mischievous smile
Eternally captivating me as if with something finely woven
Never did I dream this was the beginning of something vile
Twinkling eyes had she, with their magnetic allure
Maddeningly soft and gentle was her voice
Singing like a sensitive canary, offering me a powerful cure
For my stubborn numerous diseases that had left me no choice
A picture beyond description was the slender fairy
So heavenly splendid and brilliant was her beauty
It even gave me a constant feeling of misery
For I knew that divine appearances never last and were a rarity
Never could I believe or dream the goddess was real
So ephemeral and unrealistic did she seem
Nor did her glorious looks manage to heal
My morbidly low and destructive self-esteem
Always did I believe her to be nothing but a hologram
Never did I turn my eyes away from her features so fair
Had I look away even for a second to talk with my neighbor Sam
Sure was I to lose my eternal idol, who would vanish into thin air
So desperately profound and pathological was my passion
Could I not help weeping and sobbing, missing her
Five minutes after having to leave her at the end of the day's session
I just had to, had to, and had to see her, never able to get sober
194:777
15/10/13 09:04:28.55 mBwiH3o1.net
>>167
>This is coming from a person who did a thesis on 日本語の書き言葉の歴史、
As you know the Japanese writing system greatly changed just after the World War 2.
They not only simplified Kanji（新字体）and reduced the number of Kanji（当用漢字）,
but also changed the use of hiragana(新かな使い).
I think the main motivation of this "reform" is a desire to abolish Kanji and make the Japanese writing system into phonogramatic one.
The idea was not new. Since the Meiji Restoration, some(or many) people began to think that Japanese language is inferior to Western ones, which I think is bovine feces.
The idea was reinforced by the complete defeat of Japan by the US in WW2.
195:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/13 11:19:24.32 iI3Ekz4+.net
One scene from "Crime and Punishment"
[Context: After hearing from Svidrigailov how her brother Raskolnikov confessed
to Sonya the prostitute that he was the murderer, Dunya wants to leave
but Svidrigailov refuses to let her go. Desperate, Dunya pulls out
a revolver.]
Dunya raised the revolver and, deathly pale, her white lower lip
trembling, her large black eyes flashing like fire, looked at him (Svidrigailov), having
made up her mind, calculating, and waiting for the first movement
from his side. He had never yet seen her so beautiful. The fire that
flashed from her eyes as she raised the revolver seemed to burn him,
and his heart was wrung with pain. He took a step, and a shot rang
out. The bullet grazed his hair and struck the wall behind him, He
stopped and laughed softly:
"The wasp has stung! She aims straight at the head.... What's this?
Blood?" He took out a handkerchief to wipe away the blood that was
flowing in a thin trickle from his right temple;
(Fyodor Dostoevsky "Crime and Punishment," pp.495-496,
translated by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky,
1992, Everyman's Library)
196:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/13 15:03:13.49 GJi7zGg8.net
"Crime and Punishment"
Sonya following Ralsolnikov even to the ends of the earth
As he [= Raskolnikov] bowed down the second time in the Haymarket,
turning to the left, he had seen Sonya [= the prostitute: standing
about fifty steps away. She was hiding from him behind one of the
wooden stalls in the square, with meant that she had accompanied him
throughout his sorrowful procession! Raskolnikov felt and understood
in that moment, once and for all, that ★Sonya was now with him forever
and would follow him even to the ends of the earth★, wherever his fate
took him. His whole hearth turned over inside him... but -- here he
was at the fatal place....
Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Crime and Punishment," Part 6, Chapter 8;
translated by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky,
Everyman's Library, p.526
197:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/13 15:22:54.73 GJi7zGg8.net
"Crime and Punishment"
Near the end of the novel, Raskolnikov the prisoner sees nomadic yurts
on the steppe. Then Sonya comes.
*******************
There, on the boundless, sun-bathed steppe, ●nomadic yurts● could be
seen, like barely visible black specks. There was freedom, there a
different people lived, quite unlike those here, there ★time itself
seemed to stop★, as if the centuries of Abraham and his flocks had not
passed. Raskolnikov sat and stared fixedly, not tearing his eyes
away; his thought turned to reverie, to contemplation; he was not
thinking of anything, but some anguish troubled and tormented him.
Suddenly ★Sonya★ was beside him. She came up almost inaudibly and
sat down next to him. It was still very early; the morning chill had
not softened yet. She was wearing her poor old wrap and the green shawl.
Her face still bore signs of illness; it had become thinner, paler,
more pinched. She smiled to him amiably and joyfully, but gave him
her hand as timidly as ever.
"Crime and Punishment," Epilogue, translated by Pevear and
Volokhonsky; Everyman's Library, p.549
198:臭い米国人
15/10/13 23:08:19.18 q9eAJzQs!.net
>>194
Yes I know. I think that the only way Japanese could ever hope to leave 漢字 would be to use old 仮名.
Since the language has a very restricted range of sounds, there's no way it can possibly use modern kana or latin letters beyond very specific cases.
199:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 00:39:08.38 tqZPRE9S.net
I have a question to native English speakers here.
The question is about this expression, "well received."
If something is well received, I guess this usually means it has received a favorable reception.
But if the subject of the sentence is "the attached quote," then could it mean it was received
safe and sound via Internet as an attached file? I actually see this sentence somewhere on the net
and wasn't sure what it meant. Could it be used to notify the sender of the quote
that the recipient of the quote surely get the quote?
Do you think the person who write "well received" to mean he/she received it safe and sound is a non-native English speaker?
200:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 08:10:21.88 C01TBTYq.net
>>199
I'm not a native speaker but I just wanted to quote a passage I had
happened to find on the Internet that I thought might be similar
to what you often see.
******** QUOTE ********
Someone suggests that we take turns quoting the best maxims about
love that we know.
One of my girlfriends volunteers to go first: "This is one from
Shakespeare," she says with a touch of pride. "Love all, trust a few."
★The quote is well received.★ Everyone toasts.
URLﾘﾝｸ(books.google.co.jp)
201:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 11:44:49.80 tqZPRE9S.net
>>200
Thanks for taking your time and reply.
The meaning of "quote" is different from that of in the sentence.
Quote in 199 means the amount of money you have to pay when you buy something.
202:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 11:57:03.33 tqZPRE9S.net
According to dictionaries "well-received" means getting a good reaction from people.
but what I saw was without a hyphen. And the quote here means an amount of money you
would pay.
203:Dreas
15/10/14 12:46:33.53 4jJH1rZX!.net
>>199
Still need this answered?
204:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 12:47:09.47 tqZPRE9S.net
And sorry for the lack of the context. I know >>200 is almost as fluent as
a native English speaker. I think I know his handle name although for some reason
he's been anonymous recently.
205:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/14 12:49:15.11 tqZPRE9S.net
>>203
Of course.
206:777
15/10/14 21:15:57.32 r+VSkO9A.net
>>198
Since Kanji has been a vital part of the Japanese language,
I think if it had been abolished, it would have caused a tremendous damage to the language.
Fortunately it is very unlikely that Kanji would be abolished in the foreseeable future.
However, I think the aforementioned "reform" of the writing system inflicted,
metaphorically speaking, scars on the face of an exquisite Japanese lady.
207:臭い米国人
15/10/15 00:44:20.06 sEYwRrhV!.net
>>199
Yeah it sounds like he isn't a native if "well received" is used that way.
>>206
How do you feel about kanji that was falling out of favor because of its perceived difficulty being used again
because of IMEs? For example 鬱。
208:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/15 07:10:50.88 +QZ0A2TG.net
Reading the posts by the two of you (臭い米国人 and 777) from aside,
I'd like to state here that I've always loved kanji but I've also
been keenly aware of its great disadvantages as well.
At the age of seven, in the first days at elementary school, when
I learned the very first kanji characters, I was thrilled. I fell
so much in love with kanji that I just couldn't help practicing
how to write each kanji until I learned it completely. Not only
would I practice pronouncing each kanji, realizing its meaning,
but also I would keep writing it in my notebook and on any scrap of
paper that I happened to find at hand. While walking or in bed,
I was still thinking of all the kanji characters that I had learned
at school on the day and practicing writing them in space by using
my finger as a pencil and using space as a piece of paper. It was
about this way that I spent many more years after that. I could not
help studying closely and memorizing every single kanji that I
happened to meet. By the time I reached 18 or 20, as I recall, I am
sure that I was one of the students who had learned the most
kanji characters. I was that much in love with kanji.
But then again, I've also been keenly aware of the disadvantages
of kanji -- at least for Japanese people. Why? For Chinese, kanji
may be all right. Because the Chinese language has what they call
四声 (shisei), or the four word intonations, so to speak. For example,
the pronunciation "ma" has, in Mandarin Chinese, four word intonations:
ma1 (a high pitch maintained), ma2 (from low to high), ma3 (very low,
with its pitch slightly rising), ma4 (from high to low). Here, I'm
using these strange marks (ma1, ma2, etc.) because the standard
notation of the four word intonations in its special codes may get
garbled here. (to be continued)
209:名無しさん＠英語勉強中
15/10/15 07:16:13.37 +QZ0A2TG.net
[ Continued from >>208 ]
Anyway, what I wanted to say was that in Chinese, because of its
four different intonations for each kanji of Mandarin Chinese (and as
many as six intonations for each kanji of Cantonese), they can easily
tell each word (or kanji) from another by merely hearing it pronounced.
The ancient Chinese which we Japanese imported in the sixth or seventh
century should have been that way too.
The Japanese language, on the other hand, would have had no such
word intonation system. With a very few exceptions, none of the
Japanese words is distinguishable from another if their phonemes
(or the word forms, so to speak) are the same. For example, in
Japanese, 詩, 死, 師, 誌, 氏, 市, 士, 四, and so on are pronounced
basically in exactly the same way. But in Chinese, they are pronounced
at least in four different ways thanks to the four different word
intonations (or tones). Chinese, therefore, should be well off in using
kanji (or Chinese characters), while Japanese have a hard time at least
when they have to understand each word simply by hearing it pronounced.
(to be continued)